Calls to Repentance Are Not Attacks

As if the presence of such books as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Amos, Micah, Haggai, Malachi, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, James, 1-3 John, and Revelation in the canon of Scripture were insufficient, I find it necessary to remind you, my dear reader, that an “attack”, or “going after” someone, or “slander”, is not the same thing as calling someone to repentance.

That is, unless you think that God desires evil and hurtful outcomes for people.

You see, a highly visible and consistent theme throughout not only those books but many other passages in the Scripture is the call to forsake sin and, having left it, to pursue holiness.

Hebrews 12:14- Pursue peace with all men, and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Romans 6:17-18 – But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

What is the outcome of a life lived in the pursuit of holiness and Christ-likeness?

Romans 2:5-8 – But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
Romans 6:22 – But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

But how does one get from Point A, lost in sin, guilt, and slavery to sin, to Point C, on the road to eternal life, living in holiness and seeking the Lord’s face? Repentance! It is a change of heart, a turning away, a change, a major modification in trajectory, an overthrow. It, along with trusting faith in Jesus, is the necessary precondition for that life, for the departure from the dark path that leads to death to the light-drenched path that leads to life.

Eph 5:6-13 – Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light.

Similarly, how does one get from Point D, a regenerate believer who is saying or doing sinful things, walking in darkness, living contrary to his profession, to Point F, once again in obedience, walking in the light, living a blameless life? You got it – repentance! And that’s a good thing!

Now, as someone to whom God has given a love for my neighbor and my enemy, a love for everyone in the world, I want what is best for everyone. Love is a commitment to the best for the beloved. And allow me to restate the obvious here – when someone sins, that’s bad. When someone repents, it’s good! When someone faithfully walks with Jesus, it’s yet better. But if they’re not walking with Jesus, I want them to do it. How can that happen? Repentance! They have to turn around before they can walk the other direction.

So, the loving thing to desire, when you see someone in sin, is their repentance. Ignoring their sin so that they continue in darkness and harm to themselves and others is not love; it’s more like hatred, and it is ungodly and unChristlike. If you don’t desire their repentance, then how can you desire their walking in holiness, and if you don’t desire their walking in holiness, how can you desire them to end up in eternal life with Jesus? And if you don’t want them in heaven, you have a serious heart problem.

Since nobody, not even longtime Christians, are perfect, there may come a time and opportunity when you see your brother or sister walking in darkness by their sin, and you’ll be faced with a choice? Do you do the godly thing engage in what some call “friendly fire”? Or do you take action consistent with their perpetuating ungodliness in their lives, that is to say, no action?

Jesus engaged in “friendly fire” a few times.

Matthew 16:23 – But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”

Revelation 2:4-5 – “But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.”

So did the Apostle Paul. The entire book of Galatians is that way, including the confrontation (in front of everyone, by the way – Galatians 2:15) of Peter. He criticises the Judaisers, who were members of the church, by the way, in Galatians and 2 Corinthians, and the congregation for tolerating them. So did James, so did Peter; the list goes on.

Let’s consider a great example, however, in the life of King David. He commits adultery with Bathsheba despite having numerous wives, arranges for the murder of her husband, then continues like nothing happened. The prophet Nathan then engages in “friendly fire” toward this otherwise godly king. Now, was that wise of him? The threats around Israel remained strong. The Philistine threat never disappeared. The prospect of Moab or Edom revolting never permanently disappeared. Who knew whether Aram or Egypt would start making trouble? The Israelites had still not made a clean break from the idolatry they’d been practicing for hundreds of years! Surely, there were concerns enough to occupy a man’s mind.

This is worldly wisdom – “let’s focus on the external threat while leaving the heart alone.” Godly wisdom compels us to repent of sin so that we can do what is right, with clear vision and clean heart to see the right thing and to be able to do it, unencumbered by sin.

Hebrews 12:1 – …Let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.

So Nathan engaged in friendly fire, did the hard thing… and the payoff was repentance and a return to holiness. What Nathan did was good and helpful to David. David needed Nathan’s intervention.

Consider again Jesus’ rebuke of Peter, when there were Pharisees that needed reprimanding. There were more people that needed healing, Samaritans left without Gospel ministry, etc. Jesus spends some of His valuable time engaging in “friendly fire”. Why? Because Peter did not have in mind the things of God, but rather the things of men.

Here are some other thoughts in rapid succession:

–It goes without saying that any rebuke must be done in love, at all times. The motivations must be loving, and so must the manner of rebuke.

–Love and lovingness are defined by Scripture, not modern American mores. How did Jesus deal with people? Do what He did, how He did it.

1 Corinthians 11:1 – Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

–Those who complain about the rebuke of sin or about “friendly fire” should be more concerned with the validity of the critique and the heart of the person in question rather than the person who perceived the alleged sin, unless the one calling for repentance has himself displayed an ungodly attitude or something. But the bare fact of calling sin sin is not sinful. It is, in fact, Christlike and godly.

–It takes humility to receive criticism and repent. Guard your heart against pride, dear reader.

–To complain about friendly fire from one Christian to another is itself friendly fire by that yardstick, so it is hypocritical, and of course hypocrisy is never commendable.

Romans 12:9 – Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good.

Don’t be afraid to detect sin and to talk about it, and don’t hypocritically use the words “attack” or “go after” when a call to repentance is in view. Attacking or going after someone means you wish them ill or harm, but a call to repentance is an invitation to the best thing, to good and godliness. The two are diametrically opposed, so reform your speech on this issue so that you do not add to the problem rather than to the solution.

[Contributed by Rhology]

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32 Responses

  1. chapmaned24 says:

    In light of your interpretation of Ephesians 5:11, what happened in the following scenario when Pharisees “exposed” the adulterous woman?

    John 8:10-11
    When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

    Didn’t work out so well for them exposers, huh? Well, I see stone throwing going on from P&P.

    Jude 1:9
    Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

    2 Peter 2:11
    Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

    Proverbs 30:10
    Accuse not a servant unto his master, lest he curse thee, and thou be found guilty.

    Revelation 12:10
    And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

    Proverbs 17:28
    Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

    1 Thessalonians 4:11
    And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

    Ecclesiastes 3:1
    To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

    Ecclesiastes 3:7
    …a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

    You are all applauding that JD Hall repented. However, what is missed in that applause is that the applause is admitting that JD Hall actually sinned.

    That is key. JD Hall actually sinned. However, no one prior to JD Hall’s “repenting” ever admited that JD Hall sinned at all. As a matter of fact, JD Hall himself kept asking people such questions as “Show me in the Bible that it is wrong”, etc.

    Who, of P&P believed, or believe, that JD Hall was sinning, since P&P admits that JD Hall repented? What did he repent from?

    Let’s play the game of “Name That Sin”.

    Leviticus 19:16 (KJV)
    Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people

    Proverbs 11:13 (KJV)
    A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter.

    1 Timothy 5:13 (KJV)
    And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.

    James 4:11
    Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

    Proverbs 20:19
    He that goeth about as a talebearer revealeth secrets: therefore meddle not with him that flattereth with his lips.

    Proverbs 26:20
    Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.

    Proverbs 20:3
    It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.

    I guess that the exe-JESUS folks skipped these, huh?

    Ed Chapman

    • rhology says:

      Hello Ed,

      I pause to note that you are publicly calling me to repent of saying it’s OK to publicly call people to repent.

      You are being a hypocrite. You ought to repent of that.

      Now, as far as your other criticisms:

      John 8:10-11

      The Pharisees exposed her unrighteously for the purpose of trapping the perfect Son of God and justify themselves. They did not follow the Law of God for that situation, for they brought only the woman and not the man.

      I see stone throwing going on from P&P.

      I don’t mind telling you that that is a very foolish thing to say. Here’s why:
      1) By your yardstick you’re “throwing stones” at us. You are being a hypocrite. You ought to repent of that.
      2) The Pharisees were about to throw actual stones at the woman to execute her. Words are not stones. They wanted what was BAD for her. When I call people (like yourself, because you are a hypocrite) to repentance, I do so because I want what is GOOD for them.

      accuser

      1) But you’re “accusing” me. You are being a hypocrite. You ought to repent of that.
      2) The Bible also discusses calls to repentance and believers’ obligation to do so, as well as containing these cited verses. Please perform exegesis and show how the two sets of passages can coexist. Merely counter-citing as if the Bible contains contradictions is not the way to go.

      1 Thessalonians 4:11
      And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

      Was that the same guy who confronted Peter in the presence of all? Just asking.

      You are all applauding that JD Hall repented.

      If you want to talk about Braxton, that’s fine. My thoughts on it are that he said he repented of his bad motivations and less than 100% pure heart. He would know, so obviously that was the right thing to do. Yet I don’t think he actually did anything wrong. His actions were not wrong. I’m not saying that b/c he pays me or b/c he lets me blog here; I have other blogs to which I can contribute. I don’t need JD’s approval. I don’t need to blog at all. I say it b/c I think it’s true. I have invited people countless times to DEMONSTRATE that JD did wrong, and mainly what they do is accuse him of
      1) “attacking” Braxton, which is stupid
      2) talking to a minor, as if their cultural mores of appropriate age and such are applicable just b/c they say so

      Maybe you have a better argument. I invite you to bring it forth.

      However, what is missed in that applause is that the applause is admitting that JD Hall actually sinned.

      THAT IS NOT TRUE.

      JD said he sinned.
      He said his heart was not right. That being the case, JD sinned. I don’t have any problem saying it. He sinned. He sinned. His heart was not right. He sinned.

      Happy now?

      Why are you doing this, since the man has already repented? What is your problem? Where is your heart that you would refuse to forgive a repentant man?

      However, no one prior to JD Hall’s “repenting” ever admited that JD Hall sinned at all.

      1) He didn’t “repent”. He repented.
      2) I for my part didn’t know that his heart wasn’t right until I read that he said so. But his actions weren’t actually wrong. Prove they were wrong. Any day now. I’m waiting.

      Talebearer

      So commenting on PUBLIC posts on a PUBLIC Twitter timeline is “talebearing”? Can you not see how “talebearing” refers to gossip?

      It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.

      Hypocrite physician, heal thyself.

      • chapmaned24 says:

        rhology, So what do you plan to do?  Repent, or not repent?  It’s all nice and all that you wish to show that I am being a hypocrite, but what do you plan to do?

        You were a cheerleader.  You were not a person begging JD Hall to stop.  But now you applaud that he repented.  WHAT DID HE REPENT FROM?  How can you applaud, but were a cheerleader without repenting as well?

        There is a list of 613 laws in the OT.  Which one or ones did he repent from?

        You can’t turn the tables on me, buddy, by implying that I am a hypocrite. 

        On a side note, I do not accept JD Hall’s apology.  It’s like saying to offended people, “If I offended you, I apologize”, but for those who I did not offend, I stand by what I said.

        My concern, however, is that Caner is not of your denomination, he does not attend your church, he is not of your congregation, so why this obsession of Ergun Caner?  He does not even share your same beliefs.  He wants nothing to do with you people, and yet, you keep hounding someone who wants nothing to do with you.  Obsessiveness is not healthy.

        Ed Chapman

        ________________________________

      • chapmaned24 says:

        Rhology,

        By the way, rho, can I call ya rho? 

        1 John 3:4 states that sin is defined as “transgression of the law”.

        Not having a right heart is which law?  Remember, there are 613 laws.

        Which one states, “Thou Shalt Not have a wrong heart”?

        Ed Chapman

        ________________________________

      • rhology says:

        So what do you plan to do? Repent, or not repent?

        I don’t see anything I’ve done wrong, so I can hardly repent of nothing.

        It’s all nice and all that you wish to show that I am being a hypocrite

        Actually, it’d be better for YOU to say what YOU plan to do, since you ARE a hypocrite.

        You were a cheerleader

        Whatever. That’s nonsense.

        You were not a person begging JD Hall to stop.

        Why would I have begged him to stop? He didn’t do anything wrong.

        WHAT DID HE REPENT FROM?

        His heart was not right. His bad motivations. I already explained that.

        How can you applaud, but were a cheerleader without repenting as well?

        Because while his ACTIONS were not wrong, his HEART was. But I didn’t know that until he said so, afterwards.
        I never told anyone that I had infallible knowledge of the state of his heart. I defended his actions and his words, b/c he didn’t do anything wrong.

        Which one or ones did he repent from?

        He did not act entirely out of love. Romans 13:8.

        You can’t turn the tables on me, buddy, by implying that I am a hypocrite.

        Huh? I’m not *implying* it. I have *demonstrated* your hypocrisy.
        You ought to do the right thing and repent.

        On a side note, I do not accept JD Hall’s apology.

        Then your heart is hard, cold, and unregenerate. You ought to repent and be saved from the wrath to come. You are stirring dissent among brothers, and Proverbs 6 says that God hates you.

        why this obsession of Ergun Caner?

        This is nothing less than willful ignorance. Go do some actual research and listen to our side, then we can talk. You show no sign of even attempting to understand, so I don’t intend to reinvent the wheel.

        Obsessiveness is not healthy.

        Then I trust this will be your last comment here.

        • chapmaned24 says:

          You were a cheerleader.  And as such, that makes you just as guilty.  So what do you plan to do about it?

          You can say, “Whatever” until the cows come home.  You did wrong by being a cheerleader.  I am surprised that your conscience does not haunt you about it.

          You said: “Because while his ACTIONS were not wrong, his HEART was.”

          Actions reflect the heart(that is what the Bible teaches), so you cannot say that his actions have nothing to do with his heart.

          How much of the Bible do you people really know?

          Matthew 12:35

          A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

          Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.  

          ________________________________

      • rhology says:

        You were a cheerleader.

        I don’t know what that means. Do you mean that I debated those who were criticising JD’s actions?

        that makes you just as guilty.

        Guilty of what? Be specific, please.

        You did wrong by being a cheerleader.

        What is your evidence?

        I am surprised that your conscience does not haunt you about it.

        I was and remain surprised that such vociferous criticisms came from people who refused to substantiate their accusations with rational argumentation.

        Actions reflect the heart(that is what the Bible teaches), so you cannot say that his actions have nothing to do with his heart.

        Sure, but a person can do the right thing for the wrong reasons, and a person can have more than one reason for doing things, or a person can do the right thing with the wrong attitude. You’re being too simplistic. Surprise, surprise.

        How much of the Bible do you people really know?

        You got me. I’ve never read the Bible. Any of it. Ever.

        Hey, Ed, please repent of your hypocrisy.

        • chapmaned24 says:

          Rho,

          You said:  ” I don’t know what that means”

          Really?  You can’t be that dumb, can you?

          You said: “Sure, but a person can do the right thing for the wrong reasons, and a person can have more than one reason for doing things, or a person can do the right thing with the wrong attitude. You’re being too simplistic. Surprise, surprise.”

          What Book, Chapter, Verse(s) of the Bible addresses this?

          As you should note, I quote Bible, but you haven’t.

          I have nothing to repent from.  You accuse me of being a hypocrite.  That does not make it true.  You sinned against God.  This is between you and God.  And if your conscience does not haunt you, you will indeed be called to account after you die.  That should haunt you, that you will have to answer to God.  And if you can’t see it, then you are blind, and the Bible states to let the blind lead the blind.

          Stop obsessing over a person that wants nothing to do with you people.  Back off of your repeated demands that Ergun Caner repent.  It’s not gonna happen.  So dust your feet, and move on.

          In Acts 19:22-20:1 you should see that the Apostle Paul went to Ephesus.  There was an town uproar that he was in town.  No one wanted to hear what Paul had to say.  So, Paul just simply left town.  He did not “Give’em the gospel”.  He did not call for anyone to repent.  He just left. 

          If Caner does not want to hear what you have to say, leave him alone.  Do not force your message on anyone who does not want to hear it.

          Ed Chapman

          ________________________________

        • chapmaned24 says:

          Rho,

          You had said: “The Pharisees exposed her unrighteously for the purpose of trapping the perfect Son of God and justify themselves. They did not follow the Law of God for that situation, for they brought only the woman and not the man.”

          Where in the hell did you come up with that?

          According to the Bible, this is the explanation:

          7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

          According to the Bible, they had sin deserving of stoning of themselves. 

          He that is without sin, cast the first stone.  By their own conscience they left.  Bringing the man had nothing to do with anything.

          Where do you get your theology from?  Your explanation is very strange indeed.  Never heard your explanation in all of Christendom before.

          Ed Chapman

          ________________________________

        • chapmaned24 says:

          Rho,

          You had said: “Call him to repentance for his unforgiving heart.”

          Really?  What Bible verse states this?

          Forgiveness is a huge topic to cover.  But I do know that this is the advice that Calvinists give to people in regards to victims of spiritual abuse.  It’s a blame the victim stance.  Bind and Loose is extremely important.  And feigned forgiveness based on a guilt trip brought about by coercion still has the perpetrator not forgiven.  It is bound in heaven, and so is those who coerced a person to forgive when the forgiveness is not from the heart.

          First of all, the “repentant” person may not be “repentant”.  It may be feigned, because he got caught.  Prove that a person is repentant.  Actions speak louder than words.  A person can still get forgiveness from a jail cell, too, let’s not forget. 

          Second, in some cases, forgiveness is generally a process, it takes time and it may not ever happen.  Forgiving a person that stole a piece of gum from you is easier than forgiving a person that raped you.  Every person is entitled to be angry.  

          Forgiveness is a releasing of the power that the perpetrator has over a person, the power of fear, and intimidation.  

          Telling the victim to repent sends a wrong message.  It is wrong to coerce any victim to repent for an unforgiving heart.

          You have no idea.  I wish that you did.  And as such, you have no empathy for victims of abuse of any kind.

          Ed Chapman

          ________________________________

      • rhology says:

        You can’t be that dumb, can you?

        I guess I can. I think I was engaging people rationally and asking for reasons for their speech about JD. You see that as “cheerleading”. I don’t know what else to say than: Let the reader judge.

        What Book, Chapter, Verse(s) of the Bible addresses this?

        David bringing the ark back to Jerusalem and Uzzah touching it. Yochanan the Immerser asking his disciples to ask Jesus if He was the one prophesied. Saul giving his armor to David. Peter eschewing the Gentiles.
        Etc.

        As you should note, I quote Bible, but you haven’t.

        You might have missed the article above where I quoted a whole bunch.

        I have nothing to repent from

        Sure you do. You have acted hypocritically, which is sinful. Repent of it.

        You sinned against God.

        I keep asking you how I did so.
        Answer this question directly and immediately or, as per past discussions, further comments will be deleted.

        Stop obsessing over a person that wants nothing to do with you people.

        I’m hardly obsessing over him. I didn’t mention him in this post. YOU did.
        Further, I think unrepentant sin in the church is a big deal, so I’m gonna keep talking about regardless of what hypocrisy or nonsense you spew.

        Back off of your repeated demands that Ergun Caner repent. It’s not gonna happen.

        How do you know it won’t happen?

        In Acts 19:22-20:1 you should see that the Apostle Paul went to Ephesus. There was an town uproar that he was in town. No one wanted to hear what Paul had to say. So, Paul just simply left town.

        1) Nobody here wants to hear what you have to say, so quit commenting.
        2) As it happens, your example is disanalogous for numerous reasons.

        If Caner does not want to hear what you have to say, leave him alone.

        LOL and yet you whine at us for addressing other people ABOUT Caner. There’s no pleasing you.
        I haven’t spoken TO Caner in a long time. I’m talking to OTHER people ABOUT him because they support him and turn a blind eye to his sin. Big difference.

        Do not force your message on anyone who does not want to hear it.

        1) So stop commenting here.
        2) As it happens, nobody’s forcing anyone. Words are not stones, remember?

        • chapmaned24 says:

          If you have no idea how you sinned against God then I feel sorry for you.  You keep calling me a hypocrite. 

          Is it hypocritical to quote bible verses that inform you of your own sins?  You are the pot calling the kettle black.

          You did not at all counsel JD to stop what he was doing.  You did not MENTOR JD of his wrongdoing.  You went along with it.  And now, you claim and applaud that he repented, but you did nothing to stop JD before it got to him needing to repent.  You went along with it.  That is what makes you just as guilty.

          The Bible states that if you know of something and do not say anything, then you are just as guilty.

          And, by your own blog post, you indicate a story of David and Nathan.  Consider me to be Nathan.

          That should be an honor, considering that you are to be considered as David, oh King.

          Ed Chapman

          ________________________________

        • chapmaned24 says:

          Rho,

          You said: ” Every person is entitled to be angry. Chapter and verse, please.

          You never heard of “Be ye angry and sin not”?  Wow.  Again, how much of the bible do you really know?  For someone who loves to quote Ephesians, how did this one slip by you?  I question your sincere Christianity as a whole.

          Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

      • rhology says:

        Where in the hell did you come up with that?

        Watch your language.
        Lev 20:10 – If there is a man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, one who commits adultery with his friend’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

        Deut 22 – 22“If a man is found lying with a married woman, then both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman; thus you shall purge the evil from Israel. 23“If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her, 24then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor’s wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you.

        According to the Bible, they had sin deserving of stoning of themselves.

        1) Lying is not a capital crime according to the law of Moses.
        2) And yet lying so as to trap the Son of God… yeah, that’s pretty serious.
        3) So what?

        Bringing the man had nothing to do with anything.

        Sure it did.
        1) Jesus didn’t object to the law. Many times He upheld it. Said He came to fulfill, not abolish it.
        2) It showed that their hypocritical desire to trap Jesus, not any desire to fulfill the law, was in play there.
        3) Jesus is the one who gave the Mosaic Law. He’s God.
        4) John 8:1-11 isn’t even canonical. I think it’s funny you’re trying to use it to attack us.
        5) You’re still being hypocritical, “accusing” and “attacking” us, when you say people aren’t supposed to do that.
        6) This situation is STILL disanalogous. Words aren’t stones. They wanted to KILL her. I want Caner to REPENT. Can you see the difference? Probably not, but hopefully the reader can.

      • rhology says:

        What Bible verse states this?

        2 Cor 2:1-11
        Heb 12:15
        2 Tim 3:3
        Rom 1:31
        Eph 4:32
        Col 3:13

        But I do know that this is the advice that Calvinists give to people in regards to victims of spiritual abuse. It’s a blame the victim stance.

        That’s rubbish.
        You haven’t proven spiritual abuse occurred.
        And you are talking to ME, not “Calvinists”. Don’t overgeneralise – that’s bigotry.

        First of all, the “repentant” person may not be “repentant”.

        And how can you know either way?

        Prove that a person is repentant.

        The Bible says you are to accept the repentance of the person.
        Let the subsequent works bear out the truth of it, or not. But don’t make acceptance of repentance contingent on later works. You’re sinning. Please stop sinning.

        Second, in some cases, forgiveness is generally a process, it takes time and it may not ever happen.

        Withholding forgiveness where repentance is present is sin.

        Every person is entitled to be angry.

        Chapter and verse, please.

        Forgiveness is a releasing of the power that the perpetrator has over a person, the power of fear, and intimidation.

        Chapter and verse, please.

        Telling the victim to repent sends a wrong message.

        But what are you talking about? What victim are you talking about?
        Caner is no victim. He is an unrepentant liar and takes Christians to secular court to preserve his false reputation.

        You have no idea. I wish that you did

        I don’t have any idea what you’re talking about, but I do know that you make very little sense.

        And as such, you have no empathy for victims of abuse of any kind.

        That’s also nonsense. You don’t know anything about me. You are making unrighteous judgments against me, which is also wicked and sinful.
        Rather, I don’t slap the label “abuse” on things haphazardly; to do so drains the word of its meaning. You are doing real victims of real abuse a gross disservice. You are sinning against them as well.

      • rhology says:

        1 Cor 5 is not about repenting.

        The chapter is there b/c repentance wasn’t there. It’s not complex.

        He is not of the unleavened bread. He is of the leaven. You kick out the person.

        I thought you didn’t believe in church discipline.
        I want lost people to repent. That’s what you’re missing. You kick them b/c they’re unrepentant.

        There is no debating the word repent in 1 Cor 5.

        You’re pretty mixed up.

        Paul states to kick this wicked person out. He does not give any alternatives.

        Not in that chapter. And that’s b/c the evil had already gone so far, w/o repentance.

        You keep calling me a hypocrite.

        B/c I love the truth and am afraid for your soul, and b/c you are a hypocrite.

        Is it hypocritical to quote bible verses that inform you of your own sins?

        No. It’s hypocritical to do the things you’ve been doing that I identified as hypocritical.

        You did not at all counsel JD to stop what he was doing

        Why would I? He was doing a good thing.

        You went along with it. That is what makes you just as guilty.

        Guilty of good actions? Yep, may God grant I be guilty of many more.

        Consider me to be Nathan.

        Say godly things and I just might.

        That should be an honor, considering that you are to be considered as David, oh King.

        You’re sinning again.

        • chapmaned24 says:

          I do not see that kicking a person out is church discipline.  I already said that.

          Church discipline is something that is done “in house”, and I do not believe in doing anything in a disciplinary manner “in house”, such as “stand in the corner on one leg and recite 5 hail Mary’s”

          Telling someone that they are not welcomed is not church discipline. 

          ________________________________

        • chapmaned24 says:

          If JD Hall was doing a good thing, then his repentance is meaningless.

          Caner is not of your church denomination.  He does not share your beliefs.  He does not attend your church.

          Why don’t you obey the words of Jesus when he states to dust your feet?

          Satan is the day and night accuser according to Revelation, and you are doing what he does.  But then you turn it around on me, without acknowledging what you are doing.

          You are wrong in what you are doing.  Jesus states to dust your feet.  Many of his own disciples left him, voluntarily.  He just let them go.  He did not hound them.

          If you are gonna be a Christian, you had dog gone better act like one. 

          Ed Chapman

          ________________________________

      • rhology says:

        So… it is possible to be angry and say things that are not sinful?
        Is it possible such righteous anger might lead a person to, like Jesus, rebuke and call to repentance?
        Which would be the point of my article?

      • rhology says:

        I do not see that kicking a person out is church discipline. I already said that.

        Well, that’s what it is.
        Tomayto, tomahto.

        Church discipline is something that is done “in house”

        Yes, until the person continues in unrepentance, at which point you kick them out of the house.

      • rhology says:

        If JD Hall was doing a good thing, then his repentance is meaningless.

        His heart, Ed. His heart. We’ve been over this.

        Caner is not of your church denomination.

        1) I’m a member of an SBC church.
        2) So what?

        Why don’t you obey the words of Jesus when he states to dust your feet?

        That’s why I don’t talk to him anymore; I talk to others who welcome him, to warn them.
        Heed your own advice and cease your commenting here.

        Satan is the day and night accuser according to Revelation, and you are doing what he does.

        That’s nonsense.
        And by your own yardstick, you’re doing what Satan does. So you’re being hypocritical. Again.

        You are wrong in what you are doing.

        Prove it through rational argumentation, please.

        If you are gonna be a Christian, you had dog gone better act like one.

        You broke my Irony Meter.

  2. Ed, do you believe in Church Discipline? I believe I read somewhere that you don’t, but I would like to confirm. Once you confirm one way or the other, I would like to know why or why not. Thanks

    • chapmaned24 says:

      Dustin,

      No, I do not believe in church discipline.  I believe in discipleship.

      In Matthew 18, “bind and loose” is “personal”.  No one can forgive sin that was not done against them personally.  If someone sinned against me, then only I can forgive, or not forgive.  And if I forgive, then it is loosed in heaven.  If I do not forgive, it is bound in heaven.  No one else but me has that authority, if the sin was against me.  Matthew 18 is not to be used corporately.  It’s personal only.  Some, such as the Catholics think that priests can forgive sin.  Wrong.  Verse 1 of Matthew 18 is addressed to disciples, not Apostles.  Peter does not have the authority to forgive someone who sinned against me.  Only I have that authority.

      In regards to witnesses, they had better be witnesses indeed.  If the person that sinned against me does not admit it, when I take it to the church, the church decides to keep, or kick out.  I do not see kicking a person out of a church to be discipline.  But discipline is not even mentioned in Matthew 18.

      In 1 Cor 5, you have no choice but to kick the person out.  

      What is an elder?  Back when I was a child, the old saying was, “Respect your elders”.  And that had nothing to do with religion, either.  Nor does it have anything to do with anyone who is in a position of authority over me.

      But why would I need to respect my elders?  Because they have LIVED LIFE.  And as such, they have wisdom.  Their job is to mentor people, hence discipleship.

      There is a huge difference between discipline, and discipleship.

      Discipline is not in the Bible, and I don’t care how much that you may spin the topic.

      Ed Chapman

      ________________________________

      • rhology says:

        No, I do not believe in church discipline. I believe in discipleship.

        Then you only hold to part of the Scripture instead of all of it.

        No one else but me has that authority, if the sin was against me.

        Fine. And what if the sin were against everyone?

        Matthew 18 is not to be used corporately.

        Prove it.
        And what of 1 Cor 5? And Titus 3?

        In 1 Cor 5, you have no choice but to kick the person out.

        Not if they repent.

        • chapmaned24 says:

          Rho,

          1 Cor 5 does not address the word repent. 

          In regards to Matthew 18, I already did prove it.  Peter asked a specific question, and the topic of forgiveness was in regards to someone who sinned against HIM. 

          In regards to corporate, As a person, you can forgive someone who sinned against you.  But what about your neighbor who does not forgive him?  You have no authority to speak FOR your neighbor.  No authority whatsoever.

          I have no idea what you are trying to indicate by referencing Titus 3. 

          Ed Chapman

           

          ________________________________

      • rhology says:

        1 Cor 5 does not address the word repent.

        Great idea. Let’s just expel repentant people from the church.
        Uh oh… now we have nobody left in the church!

        But what about your neighbor who does not forgive him?

        Call him to repentance for his unforgiving heart. Kinda like your heart. Your heart is full of sin, it would appear, for you refuse to forgive the repentant and instead accuse. YOU are the accuser here. You are acting like Satan.

        You have no authority to speak FOR your neighbor. No authority whatsoever.

        Never claimed to have any such thing.

        I have no idea what you are trying to indicate by referencing Titus 3.

        I can’t say I’m surprised.

        • chapmaned24 says:

          Again, 1 Cor 5 does not indicate anything about repent.  1 Cor 5 indicates that the person was never a Christian to begin with.  A person who struggles with sin, as we all do, is not in the category of 1 Cor 5.

          ________________________________

      • rhology says:

        1 Cor 5 indicates that the person was never a Christian to begin with

        Aaaaannnnnnddddd how does somebody become a Christian?
        Hint: It’s discussed in the blogpost.

        • chapmaned24 says:

          I don’t know how many ways that I can say it, but 1 Cor 5 is not about repenting. 

          He is not of the unleavened bread.  He is of the leaven.  You kick out the person.  You don’t ask him or demand of him to repent. You show him the door.

          A Christian church is an exclusive club, not an inclusive club.  And 1 Cor 5 discusses leaven that leavens the whole lump.  There is no debating the word repent in 1 Cor 5.

          It is showing that this person has no needs, wants, or desires to become a Christian.  You show him the door and let Satan deal with him.  That is what is directed.  You do not go beyond that, hoping that somehow that this person is going to repent.

          Paul states to kick this wicked person out.  He does not give any alternatives.

          Ed Chapman

          ________________________________

  3. Rho, sometimes it seems like I am the only one who likes being challenged and called to repent, and likes having issues brought to him, by friends or by strangers, so I can examine myself and my motivations and hopefully be sanctified

  4. Born4Battle says:

    Hello Ed!

    Exactly WHY did Paul say to turn over the incestuous man to Satan? That should inform your thoughts on the matter. I said SHOULD. Probably won’t though. You seem to be up to your argumentative self.

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